Disclaimer: As a coach, I have tried to stay off posting on the forums, as does every other coach because anything written can be interpreted in different ways by the reader. If you post something and someone takes it the wrong way, you probably will come under heavy fire by a few individuals. You meant to post something nice and positive but constructive, but someone takes it the wrong way and something gets lost in translation, well we all have seen what happens after that…But I am a fan first, and a coach second.

Regardless, these kids need to be talked about and given the credit for commiting to the sport that we all love so much.

Someone recently posted asking about the ILH advantage and not understanding it. It is clear to me now that there is a significant advantage that the ILH has over the rest of the state. I was certain I knew what that advantage was after wrestling in the MIL and coaching in the OIA. The knowledge and commitment with the parents are a part of the ILH advantage, (at Aiea, our parents had no clue on what wrestling was, or how to help their kids off the mat to succeed on the mat). The committment level of the coaches also has something to do with the ILH advantage. Also having an Intermediate team might be the second advantage.  But the most significant edge is this…

Working for the first time with the middle school wrestlers at Kamehameha, we spent almost 3 months together through the daily grind of practice and weekend tournaments, capping it off at the ILH Championships this past weekend. Wrestling together for 3 months in the middle school years provides a stepping stone over the OIA counterparts, wrestling in the Championship atmosphere this weekend SLINGSHOTS them over everyone else in the state. It is impossible to simulate anything close to feel of what our kids just experienced this weekend at Klum gym. There is no drill or technique any school can use to prepare these kids for whats at stake at the Championships. And after everything is said and done, you can see the joy and belief level of the kids exponentionally rise in themselves after every win, and the pain and soul searching that happens after every loss.

Before experiencing this first hand, I probably didnt put much thought into someone winning a J.V. or Intermediate Championship, individual or team, usually because of the lack of competition behind the studs of every weight, but it was stressfully competitive between all the wrestlers and teams this year. St. Louis and Iolani were just as competitive as Kamehameha and Punahou. Pac-5 and Damien came with smaller numbers but with the same quality wrestlers as everyone else. Even after the last whistle sounded we still weren't sure who had won the team title. Punahou is ALWAYS there, and Iolani and St. Louis were advancing guys in almost every weight class.

After the standings were announced, 3 months of fighting and clawing finally came to the surface in a joyous cheer from the Kamehameha Warriors. SWEETNESS would probably be the overwhelming feeling that we felt for everyone involved.

Great job to all the athletes, statisticians, coaches, A.D.'s and parents for putting on such a successful event.

PARENT said:

Coach Lucas,

Thank you for sharing your viewpoints having worked with Kamehameha middle school wrestlers and knowing first hand how other programs and leagues are run for comparision.  Congratulations to KS.

As a parent, what bothered me was that KS and Punahou seemed to drop down a bunch of their 9th grade JV wrestlers just for the ILH Intermediate Championships for bettering their chances of winning the team title.   For all I know all the other schools may have done the same thing but I was told that KS dropped down about 10 kids and some of them had perfect JV winning records. I guess the ILH rules permit this practice but personally I think the rules need to change.

For me, it kind of takes away from the spirit of fair competition. If a 9th grade kid is legitimate JV caliber then he should stay up at JV.  The regular season JV matches are twice as long as the Intermediate matches and give them an unfair conditioning advantage.  I personally feel that all 9th graders who want to wrestle in the Intermediate Championships should wrestle at the Intermediate level for the whole season to be eligible.  It's not fair to have some stud drop into a weight class that no one has seen all season and dash the hopes of many hard working beginner wrestlers including those on the same team.  Plain and simple, it robs true Intermediates from medals.

Parent

The issue you are referring to is called 'sand bagging'. Where some individual/team is able to sneak into lower level competitions. This argument is two fold. Wrestling is an individual sport, thus all individuals develop at different paces. Now take into fact I am no longer coaching in the ILH and I have nothing negative to say about the ILH. They are and have proven to be, a very competitive and tough league. Their records and the whose 'who' to come out of their league speaks for itself. However I've seen where 9th graders and even Seniors do perform at a much lower level than the age group/class they are assigned to. The ILH as well as other parts of the country can allow this type of freedom. Thus I believe the issue of 'sand bagging' does not apply here. On the polar opposite end, I've seen   Jonathan Spiker dominate as an 8th grader for St. Louis at the JV level and thus his freshman year leading all the way to graduation was spent on the Varsity level thus leading to his 4 state titles. Now if you feel this was blatant 'sand bagging', then this issue should be brought to the attention of the head of the ILH who oversees wrestling. Last I was in this league, Carl Schroers @ Iolani would be the person you should speak to, then again that was a long time ago. So I wouldn't know who holds that position now.

 Do you have factual information that the individuals that competed in this intermediate tournament had stellar JV records and accomplishments or was this hearsay from other parents? Please understand that in this sport especially at the high school level rumors fly very quickly and spread like a virus. I am no way calling you out or supporting 'sand bagging' practices, I am memerly pointing out the possibility that you may have been mislead. I do understand what you mean by killing the true spirit of fairness and support it whole heartedly but this issue cannot be resolved thru rumor and hearsay.

With that being said, some times the true victory does not lay on the medal stand, team titles or which wrestler had their had raised but simply the fact where one wrestler did face someone of a 'higher caliber' and knows where he/she stands in hopes of improving the next time they should ever face each other in competition.

I understand and appreciate the perspective that Parent has brought to light, and would offer an alternative insight to the process that goes into running the ILH Intermediate Championships.

First the ruling is that any freshman who has competed in less than 4 JV events prior to the ILH championship is eligible to compete at the Intermediate Championship.  This allows for newer freshman or kids who need more experience an opportunity to wrestle at a more appropriate level.  

The perspective I would like to offer is as an ILH Coach.  At the beginning of the year we place our freshman at the level we feel will make them the best wrestler possible.  At the end of the year when the intermediate championships roll around coaches are left with two choices:

1)Let our eligible freshman sit for a week with no tournament or real matches

2)Let our eligible kids wrestle in a championship environment with real referees and a real bracketed format (regular season = round robin, partial reffing, nothing on the line).

Philosophically speaking as a coach option one does nothing to better my wrestlers.  Option two gives them an unparalleled opportunity to compete in a high pressure environment that Coach Lucas wrote in his post.  It is a rare but special gift to be a 9th grader in the ILH.  The season isn't over for them for two weeks after the intermediate championships, so its the perfect championship warmup so to speak.  They will be better prepared for the JV championship.  When they get to the JV championships, its the same with juniors dropping down who don't have  a spot.  Its a reason why the ILH is so tough to compete in, and a reason why they do so well at state.

It is true that Kamehameha and Punahou dropped freshman down to the tournament.  Kamehameha and Punahou have the largest programs and thus have more kids to play around with/drop down.  P5 has been doing it all year long, and the majority of their entrants were freshman.  Damien had 1 freshman out of three wrestlers.  That's 33% of the team.  Punahou had 5 freshman drop down so of 45 wrestlers that's barely 11%.  In fact Saint Louis had more freshman than Punahou, and may have had more than Kamehameha.  Proportionately the smaller schools may be doing it more than the larger schools.  The point is that everyone does it, and it gives the kids an opportunity to better themselves by wrestling more. 

I agree with Coach C's last comment.  At our school we tell the kids that winning the intermediate championship is a positive and tangible goal for them to strive for, but that it is a very small stepping stone in the larger picture of their varsity careers, and later who they become in life.  As long as they try their best they can walk away knowing where they stand, what they can work on, more about themselves, and hopefully will be better people for it. 

I don't think anyone was sandbagging.  Another poster mentioned it is within the ILH rules so long as a 9th grader wrestles less than 4 events.  It was also pointed out that other schools do the same thing but in less numbers.

I just disagree with the idea that the Intermediate Championship should be used as a warm-up event for a legitimate JV caliber 9th grader.  To me, he has no business wrestling in the Intermediate Championship in the same way a legitimate Varsity caliber 9th grader is prohibited.  It kind of defeats the whole purpose of establishing levels (in my opinion).

I don't know the rules of other sports but I know that most talented 9th graders will tryout for the JV or even get pulled up to the JV.   Some parents will keep them their kid down at the Intermediate level so that they get more playing time but many who move up, move up because they can be starters.  The increased competition will better prepare them for Varsity.  But when the Intermediate Championships for football, basketball, and baseball come rolling around.  You don't see schools like St. Louis, Kamehameha, and Punahou drop down all their JV 9th graders to stack the Intermediate team.  Iolani has been dominate for Intermediate football primarily because they don't have a JV team and hold back all their 9th graders to Intermediate.  I think Iolani would be totally taken out of the picture if this practice were allowed.

As far as wrestling goes, I see no problem with bumping up after the Intermediate season is over.  A legitimate JV caliber 9th grader has plenty of options from what I understand and they can wrestle in all the preseason Varsity and JV tournaments as they don't count.  Last Friday, there was a JV Round Robin tournament at KS so it's not like these JV 9th graders would be sitting out for two weeks without options.

My feeling is that the ILH rule which allows a 9th grader to wrestle less than 4 JV events and still be eligible for the Intermediate level is too great.  Today, an event is usually a round robin tournament or JV team tournament (bracket).  Rarely do you have an event with just a JV duel between two schools like in the past which equated to 1 match.  Now a days, 3 JV events could equate to 9-12 matches depending on the size of the round robin pool.  If the intent is to groom the elite 9th grader then why even have limits, even now, they almost have the best of both worlds. 

To me, like other sports, if they want to compete in the Intermediate Championship, they should be required to stay down on the Intermediate level during the course of the season.  Then it becomes a personal decision or a coaches decision on whether to bump a 9th grader to JV.  What is more important?  An Intermediate Individual Championship?  An Intermediate Team Championship?  Or putting the wrestler up against the toughest competition possible and maybe having to tell them winning isn't everything is more about his development and beside an Intermediate Championship is only a small stepping stone in the larger picture.  In other words we tell the loser it's no big deal but in reality it is a big big deal as Lucas expressed at to start of this post.

Not trying to make a big deal about this … just thought I'd bring this up because from my perspective it was like holy sh*t where did all these guys come from, KS and Punahou are loaded!

To Guest …. not sour grapes!

The bottom line argument against a good 9th grader going to Intermediate Championships is that the 9th grader is "too good".  Looks to me like the criticisms above are basically over that.

Well, if that's a legitimate argument, then I can easily argue that there are JV wrestlers who should not be allowed to wrestle JV, and, in fact, Varsity wrestlers who should not be allowed to wrestle Varsity. 

Seems like that argument comes from a place where people don't like it that a 9th grader who is good enough to wrestle JV or Varsity wrestles in a grade appropriate level at Intermediate.  Seems like the argument is fundamentally that it's not fair for a "good" 9th grade wrestler to wrestle at the intermediate level at all.  Ultimately, though, it seems like it all amounts to sour grapes just because a good 9th grader beat someone's good, but not as good 7th or 8th grader.  Or, because someone's team didn't have the numbers of one of the bigger programs.  Or, because of the reality that this is such a frustrating sport sometimes, especially when your kid doesn't win.

There are even 7th and 8th graders who can be competitive on the JV and Varsity level and would fall into this "too good" classification for Intermediate but these higher levels 7th and 8th graders are not allowed to compete for the JV or Varsity Championship.  I am not against "too good" wrestlers.

My position is that a 9th grader of JV or Varsity caliber has more options and opportunities.  If they wants to qualify for an Intermediate Championship then he should hold themselves back at the Intermediate level for the duration of the Intermediate season. Then bump up for the remaining JV season and Championships or Varsity season if he qualifies.

Do other sports pull JV 9th graders down to their Intermediate Championships or on a whenever needed basis?  I don't know but I would think that once the rooster is set that they don't allow kids to move up and down as needed all season long.

Technically, a 9th grader could be of Varsity State Champion caliber like Jonathan Spiker and Brandon Low and a ton more 9th grade wrestlers have proven to be Varsity caliber.  Should they have been allowed to drop down to claim an Intermediate Championship in the 9th grade?  Should they have been allowed to claim a JV Championship too!  For JV and Varsity Championships many 9th -11th graders must make a choice because the tournaments are run on the same day.  Otherwise, hypothetically if the tournaments were run on separate dates should they have been allowed to claim a ILH Intermediate, JV, and Varsity Championship and than a State Championship all in the same year.

For wrestlers like Jonathan Spiker and Brandon Low they probably had won Intermediate Championships in their 7th and 8th grade year.  They skipped the JV Championships and went straight to Varsity and in my opinion didn't miss a thing being a 9th grader who did not participate in the Intermediate Championships.

Another thing to think about is the fact that at Intermediate Championships, the organizers (Coaches and ADs) do a pretty good job of trying to bracket the kids by level within weight classes numbers permitting.  For instance, given weight classes have historically had "A" and "B" divisions.  I presume that if there were enough kids at a weight there would or have been "C", "D", "E" divisions, etc.  I'm pretty sure each letter division is awarded an allotment of medals.

I wish the ILH would award medals for places 1-6 at the intermediate level, like they do at States.  Would be nice for as many kids as possible to walk away with some hardware. 

But, the point is that a J Spiker or B Low level wreslter, where participation numbers are high, would be in a different bracket from a pure beginner with limited natural ability.  Of course, that doesn't happen if there are only 4 or 5 kids in a weight class.  But, there clearly is an effort to accommodate differing levels of ability wherever possible.

I'm also pretty sure that where there are multiple divisions in a weight class, only one division is considered the "scoring" division for that weight class.  And, so, it may turn out that a really advanced 9th grader for a given team may score high for his/her team.  So what?  It would merely mean that that kid is at the top of his/her weight class for the intermediate level.  If you have beaucoup kids in your program, then there's a heightened chance your kid's team will be in contention for the overall championship.  If you have fewer kids in your program (like a Damien, for instance), then no matter how many varsity level Freshmen you have competing at Intermediate Championships, you likely will have a hard time scoring enough to win the team Championship.

If the objective is to level the playing field for the Team Championship, then from a fairness perspective, perhaps parent's idea to exclude 9th grade JV is not enough.  Perhaps it is also necessary to limit the participation of ALL SCHOOLS to the number of wrestlers put forth by the School with the LEAST number of wrestlers (e.g.  Damien has only 10 total wrestlers in the Intermediate Champs, then all other schools can only have 10). . . . Just to make things fair.

Also, I don't know if they changed this rule or not, but last time I checked, Intermediate girls were not recognized as a separate Team division for Intermediate Championship purposes.  I think that's criminal.  If Girl's intermediate teams are recognized with a separate team championship for other sports, why not wrestling?  My understanding may be out-dated.  If they've changed that rule, then good for the ILH.  If not, bad on the ILH.  And, even if my understanding is currently wrong, still, bad on the ILH.  Once Intermediate girls were permitted to wrestle, they should have recognized a girls team champion from the get-go. 

This is how it goes … in the beginning of the season the coaches look over their roster and single out all the good 9th graders and send them to practice with the JV and Varsity team.  Basically, these 9th grader will practice the whole season with the JV and Varsity team.  In the preseason these JV 9th graders are allowed to wrestle in all the varsity and JV tournaments because it doesn't count toward their Intermediate eligibility and only have to weight certify. The coaches will monitor the number of events these 9th grader wrestle during the ILH season so that they do not go over the ILH Intermediate eligibility rule so that these JV 9th graders can be used for the ILH Intermediate Championships.  The intent from the beginning of the year is to save them for the Intermediate Championship.

A lot of posters all say that it is better for the beginner kids to wrestle the tougher competition.  Well, already there are a bunch of judo and club wrestlers in the 7th, 8th, and 9th grades and plenty more with a year of experience already under their belt that makes the Intermediate very competitive.  We don't need a bunch of JV 9th graders dropping down to be the "A" team scoring wrestler for their school and stealing away medals from the beginners.  To me, it hurts these beginners and takes away a chance for them to shine and build up pride in winning something for their school and team.

One solution would be to change the rule of under 4 events to under 4 matches for Intermediate.  In addition, the ILH should consider extending the the Intermediate season one week as this past Saturday's ILH JV round robin tournament seemed almost empty by comparison to the other joint JV/Intermediate tournaments.  The ILH could combine the ILH Intermediate Championships and ILH JV Championships to be on the same day and a week before the ILH Varsity Championships.